http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/

bloody hell!
looks like the yanks have more to worry about than kids getting fat on maccas eh?

Not sure whether to lol or just shake head and despair. Unfortunately we are all tied into the US and if they go down we are all going with them to some extent. The only people who are laughing is the Chinese as they are going to end up owning more and more of the US. Worrying times.

It's kind of fun to watch it in real time

Any UK people feeling smug should take a look closer to home. Ours is awful too and despite all the talk of cuts so far this year we have spent MORE money than we did last year!! Go figure

Not such a bad thing, the debt is in US dollars. We may need to buy some Chinese ink on credit, but we got plenty of trees to make paper. Start printing. We will never be in a situation of not meeting foriegn dept when ours is the currency that is owed. Come hell or high water its still going to be tough. When did I borrow that money? I want to see a signature, I am sure I stopped borrowing when I owed twelve thousand dollars, bout 1983 it was.

We're fooked. Obviously we learned NOTHING from Greece.

1800-Bank of America.
Ring....
Ring....
B of A - Good Morning, Bank of America, how can I help you?
Me - Yes, I would like to enquire about a loan.
B of A - Well yes, we can help you with that. What is the purpose of the loan?
Me -To help pay some other bills.
B of A - Great! I'm sure we can help you with that. How much are you looking to borrow?
Me - Approximately 3x my annual salary, this will help pay my interest payments.
B of A - Oh, that might be a problem, but we may be able help you with a consolidation loan. How much do you owe on the other loans?
Me - Approximately 7x my annual salary.
B of A - "click"
Me - Hello? Hello?

sobbering .............

Do the politians really know or understand? My guess is that they don't. A lot are not even bright enough!
All they want is to be voted in and protect their own arses!

why dont the yanks ring the chinks and say
" you know that money I owe you"
"Yes"
" Well you I aint giving it you back now fook off"?

We have a big debt problem over here as well.

It's funny though, everybody is in favour of cuts and reducing debt right up to the moment their pet interest is threatened.

Like our US cousins we spend a lot on health, defence and social welfare programs. Anybody able to count can see that we need to spend about 15% less overall but it's not as simple as it sounds. Some expenditure can't be cut, like the cost of servicing the existing debt burden which in our case is about £43 Billion a year. Other things could be cut but would result in breach of contract costs or additional costs in other areas equal to or greater than the amounts saved. Other things are just very sensitive and unpopular with the public so politically difficult.

We wine about politicians being self serving but honestly, by and large they are just doing what we say we want them too. Personally I would favour a more self reliant world but I'm in a tiny minority on this. Most people expect the state to be there as a fall back safety net, to defend the country, represent it abroad, take care of the weak and voulnerable, educate our children, look after national infrastructure, provide a justice system and on and on and on. All these things are expensive yet everybody moans about paying for them.

As I understand it in California there is a referendum system. People put up expensive propositions for things the state should do, they are nice so people vote for them, when the coresponding tax rises are proposed poeple vote them down. More and more unfunded commitments and under different systems the same things happen over and over in many democracies.

My point is a simple one. We are all in this state because as societies we ask government to do more and more of what we used to do ourselves but we refuse to fund the activity properly. Taxes will go up, standards of living will go down as reality will have to bite eventually and this is not our politicians fault. It's our fault, by and large we voted for it!!

If I stood for election in this country telling ther truth, that your asset values would decrease by about 20%, that taxes needed to rise and programs needed to be cut accross the board and that it would still take more than a decade to turn the debt burden around I would be lucky if my mum voted for me!! IMHO we get the representation we deserve, if it's feeble and craven then perhaps we should all man up a bit or just stop moaning.

Arhhhhh, I feel better now

Can I have a go on your soap box now?
The big issue is public spending on the NHS and public services in the UK. This is a cost to anybody who goes to work and pays taxes or even those who don't work but still spend money even if they are given it as benefits.
This needs sorting but it will take bottle and I suspect no politcal party has the gonads to try.

For example;
I was sitting in Bristol this weekend down by the docks, 2 overweight middle aged people sat down, lit up 2 fags, smoked them and threw the buts on the floor then waddled off.
3 points of note;
If they weren't diagnosed diabetics it won't be long before they are,
If they haven't been diagnosed with coronary artery disease it won't be long before they are,
If they didn't pick up the fag buts someone else will be paid to do it for them.

Why the F*** should I work 50+ hours a week, pay loads of tax, for people like this to be kept alive by a Health service that is on its knees?
I don't make em smoke, or eat too much or take too little exercise or chuck their litter on the street.

The answer;
Tax the hell out of tobacco, tax fat foods and fine smokers for throwing fag buts on the pavements!

Am I wrong?

I am shouting but at the situation that is developing. If you obviously abuse your body and no-one else is forcing this abuse on those individuals why should others subsidise their often,slow expensive demise.
Medicine is great at stopping people die, even when the individual or the family says turn off the lights.
Life expectancy is going up every decade, its more than we can afford.
How about the fat food taxes? Again what's it costing to manage the balloning figures of the " civilised world". An ambulance adapted to take patients over 20 stone £700K!
Maddness.
Look at our pavements outside pubs and clubs. Its a carpet of fag ends.
All this has to be cleared up by local authorities!
If you cost more to service, you pay more. Its the same for your bike or car. Big bike/car= big bills. No public subsidy for those indulgencies.

My point is that if you want to use a publicly funded service because your have made a particular lifestyle choice you should pay.
More tax on those habits that genuinely impose greater costs on the taxpaying public.
No one can say smoking, eating overtly unhealthy food and creating litter is a cost that those who don't follow such lifestyles need to subsidise.
Don't you think individuals should have some sort debt to those who try to be bit less of a drain on the public purse?

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Attributed to ALEXANDER FRASER TYTLER, LORD WOODHOUSELEE

"Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage." Attributed to Benjamin Disraeli.

Regardless of the source of these quotations, I have been congnizant of them for nearly three decades, though I heard them attributed to Neitzche. I've watched in disgust as the American people paid their least productive members of society to breed out of control (need more crack, pop out another kid and the State will give you more welfare); voted for more and more things they can't afford; became complacent to the "rule of law;" blamed inanimate objects for the shortcomings of whack jobs; and, created an education system that eliminates "failure" and "punishment" renders "success" meaningless and promotes mediocrity.

I haven't voted for a political candidate who has won since Ronald Reagan. So, to the authors of those words of wisdom penned so many centuries ago, I say: "I fear we may be there." Crotchrockety.

Oh well, good while it lasted.

Always on the backside.
You leave the leastest to rot and refuse to pull all up and then blame them for thier lazy using ways.
Create the needers and flog them for lowering your style of living by screwing you out of all that hard earned income. Pay me now, or pay me later.
Perhaps we should hate more and see if we end up creating a bbetter place for everyone.
You lazy non SD owning leeches go suck on someones elses fags.

you need to stop dissing smokers fella , its their choice and as stated they are heavily taxed , you'll be banning alchohol next , that creates a massive bill for the very badly run NHS.....
whats next....them fookers that fall off their bikes and cause damage , should they have to pay for their own healthcare????
No mention of immigration , bankers , bent fooking coppers.....nope its the smokers....WOW

To get a grip on reality I feel everyone should be self employed for just a few years in their lives with some fairly high overheads/finacial commitments. That really does focus the mind on controlling costs.
Just my opinion mind.

There is a third option. Prepare an evacuation plan and get ready for the day when the US default and China feels like having a go. Evacuate to where exactly and what is it China will be having a go at - selling crappy plastic toys to Africans perhaps?

If you think it couldn't happen, I would invite you to take a look at Greece. Six months ago, to a man/woman, the Eurocrats were saying that default wasn't an option. Now, they're just talking about when and how it will happen. Monetry union without fiscal union = disaster. Reality bites, when the greek curency reflects the competitivness (or not) of the Greek economy normality will return.

As for the rest of the debate, I would tend to agree that personal responsibility is key.

I don't care that treatment for smokers doesn't cost as much as tax on smoking. Smokers should pay their own way. If they pay more in tax than it costs to treat them then they are paying their own way. Oh, and they die early saving all that geriatric care and pension cost as well!

So should alcoholics, fat people and bikers - anybody who makes a high risk personal life choice that doesn't go their way should deal with it like an adult and pay for treatment themselves. It would be nice to help everyone, but we can't afford to do it, so there must be some basis for rationing, both in the NHS and elsewhere. All of the activities you mention are taxed already and the NHS is a form of health insurance scheme where risks are colectivised so the healthy pay for the sick, young for old and trauma is smoothed out. Ecxluding high risk activities might be one way of reducing costs, making it a bit more efficient might be another.

People often accuse you of a lack of compassion for espousing this sort of viewpoint, and it strikes me that they always fail to properly consider the alternative - comprehensive societal collapse brought about by runaway debt and consequently the inability to pay for anything at all. In that case, everybody suffers including not only the special interest groups mentioned above, who at least have some hand in whatever misfortunes might befall them, but also innocents - babies, children, disabled people, the elderly etc who through no fault of their own cannot look after themselves. Sounds good but sets up a false choice. High risk life choices are not what is at the root of the problem, if anything it's low risk ones that add the cost. The single biggest factor is age, the longer you live the more you cost, it's that simple. If we want things to be more sustainable we either need to die sooner or work longer, everything else is on the margins and makes no significant difference. If cost is the issue then smoking, drinking, fat bike racers should be encouraged at every opportunity!

I am tired of seeing the news full of complacent morons bleating on about how hard things already are, and how the cuts will make it impossible for them to live. Utter rubbish! I don't think any of these people understand what "hard" is. Humph!

A simple understanding of US dept is hardly a possibility.
A military industrial society that spends fifty eight percent of its taxed income on such is headed for a major meltdown when it is funded on the backs of a blue collar service sector that has lost many of its faith in economic stability. Throw into the picture a manufacturing industry that has packed up its tooling and headed to distant shores for higher profits in the form of cheaper labour, a citizenry that thinks that it is much better to fill five shopping carts of cheap foriegn made products than one domesticly produced cart. pay for those items from the "equity" from thier inflated home values. Add to this, a citizenry that prides itself on a individuals right to freedoms from the tyranny of government intrusions. These intrusions being his right to leave all others behind in the chase for more shit. Pass off the costs of social programs onto its most vulnerable peoples and pass onto the corporations the profits from the private health and safetynet needs for those said people. A recipe for disaster.
We seem to have embeded into the culture the idea that every person is in this game for themselves. Any intrusions are looked upon as "Nanny State". The word regulation or social has been taken to the point that many in this nation have conceded it only to mean " Pinko Commie Fag". Funny how a great many will walk into a beautiful building on Sunday and be preached at about how we are all our brothers keeper and when we get around the water cooler on Monday, its "fook those lazy bastards".
As I said earlier, we all decry remedies and solutions from the back side of the problems.
We need a new start and I believe we would be pointing less fingers and understanding others needs in a society if we did not have blame and so many screaming how the needers screwed the feeders.

I have no idea how to do the quote / reply / quote thing you did which is a shame as it’s a much neater method. I will have to do it like this instead.

China:

I think a rearming China is the least of anybodies problems (except possibly Russia). In fact as a big arms exporter I think we should see it as a major enrichment opportunity. The only real flash point I can think of is Taiwan and my money would be on a diplomatic / economic solution. There is a predictable cycle to these things although the timing is inherently unpredictable.
Labour intensive things migrate to areas of lower labour costs which in recent history has meant from west to east. This leads to industrialisation of previously agrarian societies and, with this, in time expectations rise. These societies become better educated, less isolated and wealthier until their costs force the labour intensive activity elsewhere. They have an increasing interest in world stability as this is the basis for their prosperity.

Already Chinese jobs are going to Africa and so it goes on. My guess is that China will have its hands full trying to keep its middle classes quiet, I don’t see them bombing anybody until vital resources really start to run low in which case all bets are off everywhere.


Smokers, the fat, risk takers and feckless lazy bastards:

You make an enticingly attractive sounding argument but as with most things the devil is in the detail. Who decides who is deserving or not deserving. What happens when the same person falls on both sides of the divide, how could you ever assess the opportunity cost given that you can’t know when a treatment is needed what somebody may subsequently contribute to society. Do you just let the undeserving, who can’t pay, die?

I don’t smoke by the way (although I did for years) I’m not fat, I work (have run my own businesses for 20 years) although I might qualify under the bastard bit of this heading

The old:

My dad hates getting old but as we have laughed on several occasions, what’s the alternative! A mate of mine is a prof of public health at Oxford University so whilst I’m no expert I have had discussions with someone who is. I believe on average 90% (ish) of all the health resource spent on you happens in the last few years of your life. Some of the largest public purse issues are health, long term care and pensions. We leave education later, work for fewer years and live much longer than was the case when the welfare system was designed. It really is the case that all the big cost is in support of the retired. If members of the previous group die a few years ahead of what would otherwise be the case then in cost terms at least they are doing the rest of us a big favour.


Population control:

You are right of course, there must be a finite capacity for the earth to support human populations. There seems to be a big debate about what this number is but I don’t think there is any debate that at some stage it’s too many.

Nature has a way of dealing with overpopulation. It’s brutal but some combination of starvation, disease, conflict and predation returns numbers to a more manageable levels. Perhaps this brings us back to your China crisis but there is another possible scenario. The better educated and wealthier a society becomes the fewer children they have. Perhaps then, India and China will stabilise as will other areas as the manufacturing jobs get pushed around the globe and wealth spreads more evenly. Weather we have time for this to work through is anybody’s guess. My only thought on artificial population control is that wherever it has been tried before it has failed and also introduced population distortions (usually in the form of a lack of girls) which bring with them further problems.

Debt


And the immediate issue of public debt...... Well we have too much of it so we need to spend less and repay some. In the past the way advanced economies, even the Americans, have got off the debt hook is to allow a bit of extra inflation into the system. This has the effect of reducing the real value of the debt, it’s a form of soft default and it’s what I think is already quietly going on now.

Just had a really interesting conversation with a specialist nurse running their Diabetes Clinic. That was a real eye opener. My typing is too slow to recount the whole story but the bigger we all get as a population the more diabetes is going to cost the healthcare services round the world. To quote this lady "we are spending 10's of millions on a largely avoidable disease"
And its all ages but rising really fast in adolecents.

We the people of the UNITED States.
Of The People
For the People.
Hey, People, WE are the Government.
It is not THEY it's WE.