hey all, so I just did my 3rd (ever) track day and I'm now able to get my knees down (right > left) and have begun to grind pegs. That being said, I'm doing those things w/o posting quick lap times which tells me the obvious: I'm a new track rider. Things like braking, throttle control, and lines are still a work in progress for me, however, I feel like I have trouble w/ body positioning.
Earlier sessions had me unable to get the knee to touch because my butt didn't move from the seat, check. Now I have the problem of staying balanced w/ my butt scooted and to relax my deathgrip. I'm more comfortable on the right than the left (more right turns at Infineon). I have tecspec tank grips but the shape of the tank doesn't match my leg position when I scoot my butt. Most of my inner thigh (about halfway down the leg) touches the corner of the tank closest to the saddle and the front edge of the saddle itself.
From the pics, I feel like I sit too upright and should slide my butt back in the saddle and hunker over the tank a bit more. Also, I think I end up moving my upper body WAY more than my lower body at this point, which just looks off to me. I also am inconsistent w/ my positioning amongst different turns.
Any other tips from the pics O' SD Lords of the Track?
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110708/kt ... mage7.html
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110708/kt ... mage8.html
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110708/kt ... age16.html
http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web110708/kt ... age11.html
PBRnr
2011-07-09 15:23:00 UTC
JohnJJr
2011-07-09 16:02:00 UTC
Post missing.
KTM666
2011-07-09 16:55:00 UTC
Lower bars help alot...... more weight over the front and easier to get body lower and to the side
You need to get ass of the seat (one cheek)....the insentive (I know because this is what got me do it....
You need to get ass of the seat (one cheek)....the insentive (I know because this is what got me do it....
Ducati Pete
2011-07-09 17:19:00 UTC
Post missing.
TimR
2011-07-09 17:27:00 UTC
Post missing.
BASH69
2011-07-09 20:02:00 UTC
Theres not a great deal wrong with your body position IMHO, here ya go -
This gives you a small comparison, my style has changed alot sincve this photo and now my upper body is always positioned lower and pointed more into the corner, but if you notice the basics, my lower body is positioned with half my butt hanging off the seat with my outer legt locked into the tank and footrest. This basically will allow you to keep the bike more upright whilst holding the same corner speed that you are now using, more ground clearance, more room for error and ultimately you give yourself more room for more speed!
It will only come with time and practice and unfortuanly its not really something you can practice on the road!
For now dont worry too much about body position, just concentrate on working how to lock your lower body into the bike so you can be nice and loose and relaxed on the bars - this will show the biggest improvement in stability and confidence to begin with
This gives you a small comparison, my style has changed alot sincve this photo and now my upper body is always positioned lower and pointed more into the corner, but if you notice the basics, my lower body is positioned with half my butt hanging off the seat with my outer legt locked into the tank and footrest. This basically will allow you to keep the bike more upright whilst holding the same corner speed that you are now using, more ground clearance, more room for error and ultimately you give yourself more room for more speed!
It will only come with time and practice and unfortuanly its not really something you can practice on the road!
For now dont worry too much about body position, just concentrate on working how to lock your lower body into the bike so you can be nice and loose and relaxed on the bars - this will show the biggest improvement in stability and confidence to begin with
Ducati Pete
2011-07-09 20:09:00 UTC
ASH, you look so cool!
(NO HOMO)
(NO HOMO)
BASH69
2011-07-09 20:42:00 UTC
Cheers Pete - il take that as a complement from you mate
Jermo
2011-07-09 22:14:00 UTC
From the pictures and text in the opening post it looks like you need to sit backwards a bit further to get your outer leg properly locked onto the tank. This way you can release the pressure from the handlebar without falling off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt9lB-LErQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt9lB-LErQ4
KTM666
2011-07-09 22:28:00 UTC
Many of the track day instructors that I have been with ...do not consider CSBS methods or practice as being worthwhile...in fact some dismiss it totally as not relevent
Ducati Pete
2011-07-09 23:40:00 UTC
I'd agree it's not the be-all and end-all a lot people think it is, however, a lot of the principles are spot on.
That knee to knee thing is the difference between Xaus and Biaggi through a chicane.
That knee to knee thing is the difference between Xaus and Biaggi through a chicane.
KTM666
2011-07-09 23:49:00 UTC
Love him or hate him he Biaggi is like silk smooth as... as Witham says the perfect style (Maybe not in those words...but I cant do a northern accent..Witham is funny as)
The Knee to Knee is a given ...its more about Counter steering...that they seem to have a problem with
The Knee to Knee is a given ...its more about Counter steering...that they seem to have a problem with
Ducati Pete
2011-07-09 23:54:00 UTC
I thought CSS line on counter steering was - The most efficient way to steer / turn a bike, the primary steering input?
KTM666
2011-07-10 00:06:00 UTC
Yes... thats the area where the track day instructors disagreed completly they said that at high speed it was impossible to counter steer.. fast enough
PBRnr
2011-07-10 00:14:00 UTC
thx for the advice all! I haven't taken CSBS but I have that Twist of the Wrist 2 DVD...in asking multiple riders out here, some have said it was worth every penny, others say it can help until you get "fast" and then it can potentially slow you down. One guy saw it as more of a "whose got the last word" between Pridmore and Code. I personally don't know what to think but it's a lot of $$$ to attend.
PBRnr
2011-07-10 00:16:00 UTC
Post missing.
Jermo
2011-07-10 11:06:00 UTC
Post missing.
Agent Orange
2011-07-10 13:28:00 UTC
Hi mate,
Your boday position isn't bad at all!
As the guys said, you may want to get your butt a bit more off the seat..
However, I found that after a while at massive lean angles,the best way to hang off is to focus on leaving the bike more upright (ie. don't don't take it with you). In the beginning you may want to hang off and conschionsly leave the bike more upright..
Also consider getting on the gas as soon as possible through the corner (as per Twist of the wrist) to transfer some more weight to the rear and increase your clearance..
Re Keith Code and his principles - for 98% of riders it is a brilliant tool to improve your riding immensely and probably the best investment you can make in your riding. Just simple things like (as mentioned) opening the throttle earlier through corners dropped my laptimes by two seconds without even trying.. There are always going to be naysayers and know it it all's, but don't dismiss the technology that KC has developed, it's invaluable.
Your boday position isn't bad at all!
As the guys said, you may want to get your butt a bit more off the seat..
However, I found that after a while at massive lean angles,the best way to hang off is to focus on leaving the bike more upright (ie. don't don't take it with you). In the beginning you may want to hang off and conschionsly leave the bike more upright..
Also consider getting on the gas as soon as possible through the corner (as per Twist of the wrist) to transfer some more weight to the rear and increase your clearance..
Re Keith Code and his principles - for 98% of riders it is a brilliant tool to improve your riding immensely and probably the best investment you can make in your riding. Just simple things like (as mentioned) opening the throttle earlier through corners dropped my laptimes by two seconds without even trying.. There are always going to be naysayers and know it it all's, but don't dismiss the technology that KC has developed, it's invaluable.
PBRnr
2011-07-15 03:16:00 UTC
my vid from the ride!
indy84
2011-07-15 07:23:00 UTC
It looks to me that your a little crowded up front based on your arm bend. Sit further back in the seat so that you have a few inches between your crotch and tank to get lower. Or, maybe your just a lot taller than me (i'm 6'1").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLcejqZYIo0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLcejqZYIo0
Mac_Boarder
2011-07-15 07:23:00 UTC
mad video......... love it
MADDOG53
2011-07-17 10:23:00 UTC
Try next time to mount you go pro like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnhbT2dOZm4
Really helped to figure out what I'm doing wrong
Cool vid by the way, way better editing than me !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnhbT2dOZm4
Really helped to figure out what I'm doing wrong
Cool vid by the way, way better editing than me !!
JohnJJr
2011-07-17 20:38:00 UTC
Body positioning is one thing , but has anyone thought about "head" positioning,,, I mean some guys fly with their head "down" and some ride with their head level with the horizon,,,,the level horizon guys around here anyway were the known "crashers",,,,,,,when I was on track I noticed I was a head down rider for the most part,,,,,slow turns were a bit different,,,,,opinions
drswade
2011-07-18 02:24:00 UTC
Post missing.
Tead
2011-07-22 18:23:00 UTC
Hang off, more hang off!!
drswade
2011-07-22 19:00:00 UTC
Listen to Tead and the other guys that race this thing. It ain't like any other bike my man!
I forgot to mention that in my T2 pics in my post there is the BP I am talking about. All in the effort to get the bike up, up, up! An absolute necessity in T2 where bike are swallowed up whole in very ugly high sides. Imagine a line through the bike and then dip it over to meet the line through an imaginary line through my body. Now see how much lean angle that would be! Any throttle there at that imagined angle would no be good, I assure you!
Case in point: Open Twins AFM Round 5 a couple of weeks ago.
From on board my team mates 916. He took out the 848 on the INSIDE of him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75WfPFiwGYQ
I forgot to mention that in my T2 pics in my post there is the BP I am talking about. All in the effort to get the bike up, up, up! An absolute necessity in T2 where bike are swallowed up whole in very ugly high sides. Imagine a line through the bike and then dip it over to meet the line through an imaginary line through my body. Now see how much lean angle that would be! Any throttle there at that imagined angle would no be good, I assure you!
Case in point: Open Twins AFM Round 5 a couple of weeks ago.
From on board my team mates 916. He took out the 848 on the INSIDE of him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75WfPFiwGYQ
Tead
2011-07-22 19:28:00 UTC
I miss the time with my superduke *sigh*
Ducati Pete
2011-07-22 20:33:00 UTC
Tead, how much pressure can you put down through the outside peg when you're off like that?
Having my outside arm that straight feels very alien to me, if it starts to have a little slide I feel like a passenger.
Having my outside arm that straight feels very alien to me, if it starts to have a little slide I feel like a passenger.
Colonel_Klinck
2011-07-22 22:00:00 UTC
That photo is awesome. Reminds me of Nicky Hayden knee sliding a Supermoto bike.
Basically, I always try to pay attention to the level of tension in my body. If I'm scrunched up against the tank, usually my shoulder and neck muscles are very tense, which does nothing to help and wastes energy. The body position you show when hanging off the bike looks much more comfortable. As if the bike is doing all of the work and you are simply hanging on, relaxing and enjoying the ride. Whenever there is tension in the body it's usually because of some kind of fear, and as a result it becomes difficult to relax. Relaxed muscles are fast muscles.
Basically, I always try to pay attention to the level of tension in my body. If I'm scrunched up against the tank, usually my shoulder and neck muscles are very tense, which does nothing to help and wastes energy. The body position you show when hanging off the bike looks much more comfortable. As if the bike is doing all of the work and you are simply hanging on, relaxing and enjoying the ride. Whenever there is tension in the body it's usually because of some kind of fear, and as a result it becomes difficult to relax. Relaxed muscles are fast muscles.
Tead
2011-07-22 22:07:00 UTC
Tead I do love your riding position dude Would echo what Pete asks though, if that bike starts to slide away can you still put enough pressure on the outside peg?
And I do love that Team Scream video. Proper hooligans.
And I do love that Team Scream video. Proper hooligans.
Agent Orange
2011-07-22 23:02:00 UTC
Hanging off like this has got only advantages.
When the bike high sides, I would only fall off like 20cm to the ground instead of flying around
But to answer your question what if grip leaves me alone and I start to slide a bit, which sometimes happend when I drove with that lean angle: well... let it slide. Nothing bad happens, the tyre tells me to relax a bit, thats all. I dont fall off the bike just because it shakes a little
When the bike high sides, I would only fall off like 20cm to the ground instead of flying around
But to answer your question what if grip leaves me alone and I start to slide a bit, which sometimes happend when I drove with that lean angle: well... let it slide. Nothing bad happens, the tyre tells me to relax a bit, thats all. I dont fall off the bike just because it shakes a little
Ducati Pete
2011-07-23 00:26:00 UTC
Just a note on weighting foot pegs - weighting the inner peg will cause the tyre to slide more, whereas weighting the outer peg will do the opposite. The MotoGP guys use this to their advantage depending on what they want the bike to do.. I also have personal experience with this and have slid out a few times, once definitely by hanging off and putting too much weight on the inner peg.. I have since learned how to lock in my outer knee and foot!
drswade
2011-07-23 00:52:00 UTC
"Inside to slide, outside for drive" - Mick Doohan
Hotbrakes
2011-07-23 19:52:00 UTC
My last race weekend I started to slide both tyres at 110mph on a right handed sweeper at Las Vegas. It was slightly disturbing at first but when I realised how predictable it was I was just railing by others in that turn! To be at the front you HAVE to slide the tyres and be cool with it.
As far as weight on foot pegs, it is just a game of balancing out inputs, weight shift, etc. I didn't mean to imply that I weight the inside only.
What Tead said about beginning and through the turns.
It is acceptable to change BP mid turn but UNACCEPTABLE to add lean angle mid turn!
I think the bottom line, if there was one, is that you have to move your body around to make the bike behave in a way that is fast and safe.
As far as weight on foot pegs, it is just a game of balancing out inputs, weight shift, etc. I didn't mean to imply that I weight the inside only.
What Tead said about beginning and through the turns.
It is acceptable to change BP mid turn but UNACCEPTABLE to add lean angle mid turn!
I think the bottom line, if there was one, is that you have to move your body around to make the bike behave in a way that is fast and safe.
drswade
2011-07-23 23:48:00 UTC
Your ass crack should be in position prior to braking, not leaning, just have your butt in position. It should never be in the middle of the seat EVER except for maximum tucking on long straights.
At the turn in point begin moving your head (with shoulders and torso attached) inward towards the mirror. At the apex you should be "kissing" the mirror, rolling on the throttle, and straightening the bike up while keeping your body down low.
Sounds like your getting there if you're not crashing, dragging knees, and passing people. Seat time and learning and practicing small, incremental steps is how you get faster.
At the turn in point begin moving your head (with shoulders and torso attached) inward towards the mirror. At the apex you should be "kissing" the mirror, rolling on the throttle, and straightening the bike up while keeping your body down low.
Sounds like your getting there if you're not crashing, dragging knees, and passing people. Seat time and learning and practicing small, incremental steps is how you get faster.
PBRnr
2011-07-24 17:03:00 UTC
Post missing.
Hotbrakes
2011-07-26 23:25:00 UTC
I've read this with interest but not a lot of understanding - because of one particular thing, which probably means I'm a bit of a dimwit.
I've skimmed through TWOTW2 and read/heard of the "locking in" - but what does it actually mean?
I can't work it out from watching others (live or onboard vids) or from general chats and a lot of people who should be able to explain this seem to be at a complete loss with anything that isn't a sportsbike.
I can see/understand the "get your arse off the seat", "head where the mirror is" (orangutans and the rest of us), "outside for drive, inside for slide" but what do you actually "lock in" to?
On the rare occasion that I'm climbing around on the SD pretending to go fast, I'll be doing all sorts of stuff to try and stop crashing slowly but what does this "locking in" actually mean? On the brakes, I understand the thing with the knees and the stomp grips etc but that is (as far as I can see) a completely different thing.
If I'm trying hard I'll (for example, on a long left hander) I'll be off the seat, pulling the bike in on top of me on the way in (or so it feels like) and looking all the way through the corner - but I'm not "locked in" to anything. If I'm doing well, I've got my weight balanced between the seat (lazy git), the pegs and, if I'm on the ball, a light touch through the bars. I'll have the inside of my right thigh against the back of the tank but I'm not "locked in" - I know I still move my feet position, upper body and arse based on the feel of the bike.
Is it that I can do this because I'm going slowly enough to arse about or have I missed something? (or both!?)
I've skimmed through TWOTW2 and read/heard of the "locking in" - but what does it actually mean?
I can't work it out from watching others (live or onboard vids) or from general chats and a lot of people who should be able to explain this seem to be at a complete loss with anything that isn't a sportsbike.
I can see/understand the "get your arse off the seat", "head where the mirror is" (orangutans and the rest of us), "outside for drive, inside for slide" but what do you actually "lock in" to?
On the rare occasion that I'm climbing around on the SD pretending to go fast, I'll be doing all sorts of stuff to try and stop crashing slowly but what does this "locking in" actually mean? On the brakes, I understand the thing with the knees and the stomp grips etc but that is (as far as I can see) a completely different thing.
If I'm trying hard I'll (for example, on a long left hander) I'll be off the seat, pulling the bike in on top of me on the way in (or so it feels like) and looking all the way through the corner - but I'm not "locked in" to anything. If I'm doing well, I've got my weight balanced between the seat (lazy git), the pegs and, if I'm on the ball, a light touch through the bars. I'll have the inside of my right thigh against the back of the tank but I'm not "locked in" - I know I still move my feet position, upper body and arse based on the feel of the bike.
Is it that I can do this because I'm going slowly enough to arse about or have I missed something? (or both!?)
drswade
2011-07-27 02:39:00 UTC
seems apparently hard to put into words! To me, "locked in" seems to suggest that your lower body is positioned on the bike during a turn allowing you almost take your hands off the bars entirely, if you so desired, w/o falling off. One of the trackday speakers ran a body positioning classroom and was able to "lock" himself in full hang-off position w/ his hands free. I suppose this lets you a) get the bike more upright and b) free your hands for steering input only (vs hanging on for dear life)
did i get it right?
did i get it right?
Menlo-SD
2011-07-27 03:11:00 UTC
Post missing.
mattipoeka
2011-07-27 06:52:00 UTC
This video describes counter steer at high speeds, but I think it's very good at showing how exaggerated the motion is. The counter steer almost kicks the rider off his seat. I like that feeling where you have your weight perfectly set so very little pressure is needed on the bars to keep the turn.
http://www.gotagteam.com/KTM_Days/Video ... ering.html
http://www.gotagteam.com/KTM_Days/Video ... ering.html
KTM666
2011-07-27 17:46:00 UTC
Ahhh. A link to GoGo's site.
The TriValley Team and the Glorius days of the racing SuperDukes!
Those were some fun times!
The TriValley Team and the Glorius days of the racing SuperDukes!
Those were some fun times!
mattipoeka
2011-07-31 21:53:00 UTC
Gents, thanks for the comments - still not sure how to "lock in" but I sort of see what the objective is - to be able to effectively position yourself on the bike so that your input to the bars is purely for steering as opposed to using the bars hanging on.
I shall be experimenting at Cadwell - see, I'm getting my excuses in early!
(I wrote my original post when pissed - I only remembered that I'd posted a couple of days ago!)
I shall be experimenting at Cadwell - see, I'm getting my excuses in early!
(I wrote my original post when pissed - I only remembered that I'd posted a couple of days ago!)
KTM666
2011-08-01 06:41:00 UTC
Rob
Are you in pain in this picture? The only person still racing in this pic is GoGo, even Alex retired... The SD can take a toll...
B
Are you in pain in this picture? The only person still racing in this pic is GoGo, even Alex retired... The SD can take a toll...
B
mattipoeka
2011-08-16 06:12:00 UTC
Hi,
New to the forums.. but here is a example of my body positioning. Still "getting there" since I crashed couple track days before
Comments about the body positioning?
New to the forums.. but here is a example of my body positioning. Still "getting there" since I crashed couple track days before
Comments about the body positioning?
KTM666
2011-08-16 06:50:00 UTC
Problem was wet track and road tyres ...not body position
Latest looks fine except you are trying for Knee down rather than corner speed....
Latest looks fine except you are trying for Knee down rather than corner speed....
mattipoeka
2011-08-16 07:16:00 UTC
Post missing.
KTM666
2011-08-16 07:27:00 UTC
Post missing.
mattipoeka
2011-08-16 11:02:00 UTC
Post missing.
Hotbrakes
2011-08-17 00:55:00 UTC
Post missing.
Ducati Pete
2011-08-17 01:51:00 UTC
The way you're holding that grip is like a schoolgirl with her first cock.
Why not go the whole hog and take your hand off?
Why not go the whole hog and take your hand off?
KTM666
2011-08-17 05:01:00 UTC
Post missing.
mattipoeka
2011-08-17 06:06:00 UTC
Nice lean angle.. what tyres?
tripoddave
2011-08-17 07:38:00 UTC
Post missing.
Hotbrakes
2011-08-17 14:11:00 UTC
Post missing.
KTM666
2011-08-17 16:00:00 UTC
I like the D209 very similar to D211 that I use now.......That's a great advert for the SD straight from track bike to tourer.....I have a mental picture of you passing sports bikes elbow down with the panniers still on and a bead seat .......now that would p*ss them off
Stupid Luke
2011-08-17 20:17:00 UTC
Post missing.
shadowman
2011-08-17 20:22:00 UTC
Post missing.
Hotbrakes
2011-08-17 20:25:00 UTC
At a lesser lean angle sure! But those Alpinestars gloves are having enough trouble keeping the fingers together without scraping out the stitching on tarmac. It's fun to do but use your buddy's gloves.
KTM666
2011-08-17 20:27:00 UTC
What track were the Photo's taken?