MSV Track/Race Academy vs CSBS vs 3x trackdays

Was looking at upcoming trackdays and noticed MSV are doing a track/race academy. They are calling it Tommy Hill event, although the chances of actually getting 1 on 1 with him are about 0% I would imagine. Saying that you get 1 instructor to 3 riders and 6 x 20 min sessions on track plus 3 sessions in the class room. Price is £295 which is over £100 cheaper than California Superbike School. If you do the Race school you get a ACU licence thrown in as well but as I won't be going racing that wouldn't be much use to me. Still a lot of dosh though and I could do nearly 3 trackday for the same cost. But if it brings on my riding it could be worth it. Those that have done training was it worth the money or would I be better off just doing 3 trackdays?

http://www.trackandraceacademy.co.uk/race-academy.aspx

Or another option, http://www.focusedevents.com/circuit_rider_clinic.asp as your going to Spain. I had Simon Crafer for the day a few years ago, and he was well worth the money.

It's all marketing bullshit. Much like Walkers race school.

If you want to go faster through training book a day with Nemo from tdr. Or try Mike Spike Edwards. Both top class 1 on 1 training.

Booking a day with one of the riders on the FE Event is totally worth the money.
From what I've heard Spike Edwards is very good but its important to understand that Spike is a race coach.
To get an idea of what he does why not buy one of his track videos? His one of Cadwell is probably money well spent for anyone planning on doing the Crashfest.
http://www.v2pro.info/eshop.htm
He also does one of Almeria for those going on the Foreign Crashfest this year. Essential viewing for anyone who hasn't been there before I'd have thought!

As regards the California Superbike School I think its important to understand that they are the only school anywhere on the planet that have actually given serious thought to what is involved in riding a motorcycle fast and producing a riding system that equips students with a skill set that can be built on and refined.
I would recommend getting a copy of 'Twist of the Wrist Part II' (only!) and going on a CSS stage 1 school.
The point really is that great racers do the stuff taught in the CSS but mostly don't realise they are doing it so they can't teach you.
An example is the bridge between what Spike teaches and what you see: he tells you to turn in at this point and hold that line, accelerate here - brake there etc but that is of no real use if you can't go to a strange circuit and make your own plan of attack.
Bottom line CSS is the root of understanding what the hell is going on. Can't recommend this stuff highly enough.

I might book day 2 with an instructor in Almeria.

...do your selve's a favour and buy ''Motovudu'' ''Dark Art Of Performance''

http://www.motovudu.com

Simon tell's it like it is

To go further I have been on track with Klincky and can guarantee he is too advanced to get anything out of CSS level 1 and 2.

The MSV thing looks like a con. You used to be able to get one of their instructors for 20 quid 1 to 1 for a session. You could get a FE instructor 1 to 1 for a session for nothing. I think you still can.

So 1 less session than a normal trackday for 3 x the price. Think I will give it a miss. Buy the Motovudu book and DVD for 35 quid, do a couple of extra trackdays practising Crafar's techniques and get a bit of coaching in Almeria; sorted.

.....if you watch the Video of Simon (..and Neil ) Plodding around with me ...making me faster (and safer)...is one thing..... I have watched Simon

(..Sorry for everyone who has never witnessed Simon Crafer in front of them....pointing out the Apex’s, braking points and Full throttle points while riding with one hand and spending 60% of the time looking back at you ...while you follow at 10 tenths)

......doing the same (ok going a lot faster) to the top Spanish SSB riders .....is something to behold....funny as ..lots of Ego's passed away that day...... of all the riders I have ever seen (on track with me) ...he truly looks like its effortless.....easy...both top blokes off track as well

Just skim read the posts so might be missing the point but...........................



With coaching.......

Spike was working with diver Dave at Donny in the garage next to me. I got inbetween them a few times passing them and saw the huge difference in dave though the day. I went from passing him at will to a few sessions later pretty much giving up as i'd have to put a race pass on him so i took a run through the pits to get away from them. All sessions were video's and they sat watching it back and breaking it down after every session.

He's not a race coach. That is just another feather in his cap....as with Nemo. Nemo is ex CSS and coaches trackday guys but also jets off to Dubai to instruct racers over there too.

With Crafar, i bought his DVD and book and dont agree with it as it just didnt suit me. Thats the best thing about bikes rather than cars, they are so complex. There is no set way to ride one fast. So many different tecniques work.. Compare Doohan to Bayliss to Stoner....all completely different but all world class.


With riding......and with Cerec's post...

I have no skill. I aint talented. I'm just an intense little fooker and if i'm interested in something i give it my absolute all. If i had talent i'd be doing 1.40's at Donny to match the front runners in the SDR battle. I did a 1.46, that mid pack. One second is alot................ 6 seconds is fuuuuuckkkkiinngg miles off the pace. What guys dont realise is i change something every session to learn something. Always try something new so every session of every trackday is progression and building data. Ask Fuel about Oulton. Sitting scribbling thoughts and what i felt down in a notepad ater every session so i learn and move forward. You cant buy that shit. You gotta put in the graft, the apprenticeship. I'm on that treadmill 3-4x a week running my ass off to get my weight down and all that time i'm doing laps in myhead and picking tip in points etc. That aint natural. Thats someone with no talent who is having to bust his ass to try and get 1/2 decent. Hence the move to racing. It's a higher standard and the learning will be more intense.

But one thing i've said all along all through my car stuff and into bikes. To go fast is 90% mental. If you have good feel for grip and your mind is able to function at pace then you'll be fast. The rest is just smoothing the edges.

The fast guys are relaxed at pace, only using 80% of their brain and have 20% left to deal with slides, backing in, unexpected shit. Normal folk run round at 99% brain power then when the bike twitches they have no brain power left to deal with it so freeze, tense up, and launch it. To be relaxed at pace comes with time at pace.

Training is great. After Nemo giving me advice last week i'm not fobbing it off anymore. But if more guys were prepared to go out there and instead of just circulating, instead learn. Push the comfort zones, run it in that lil bitty deeper trailing a little brake to feel what happens, try new shit, go radical with bike set up to learn what it does there would be alot more faster guys on trackdays.

I've had a rant to Bash, Tripoddave etc about this stuff. TBH i think fast group trackdays are a joke. It's like some kinda thing guys wanna brag about that they're in the group. I find it bizzarre.....they pick that group when they book!!! What i'm getting at is...........if guys put in some effort and tried to learn and figure shit out they would understand it and progress and fast group would acutally be fast.

Take some praise Gordon. Even if it is all in the mind, your mind may well be better tuned. You see and note stuff you can change that guys like me just are not tuned into..
Mental advantage can still be a gift we don't all have. I teach,and have done for 25 years and trust me not everybody will get what some grasp with no effort. It's just great to watch those that get it and benefit from their natural flair for whatever they are trying to learn. It's the same watching you and Skip at Anglesey.
Cheers and keep pushing

FE still offer free instructors on uk track days. I did a wet session with one last thurs afternoon at Cadders. He said he was only behind me for 3 laps though as the SD left his 600 down the straights, she's such a good girl He said my lines were fine from what he saw though and keep doing the same but I know there are areas I'm weak.

Easytracks and No Limits also still do free instruction. I might get a session at Snetteton next Monday as my lines are not very good there.

I my self have missed the boat as far as racing is concerened (by 35 years) I have only recently started (3 years or so)....I love road riding....(on empty roads...which is getting harder and harder) I always considered my self fast.....

Riding on track is great...but it is not and never will be racing.....I did Almeria in Feb this year on the R1 (and that has 50hp+ on my fit SD) there were 20-30 Thudersport riders (some famous names as well) getting the cobwebbs off ready for the new season....only a few had been to Almeria before and so were working their way through the groups...getting faster every session by the end of the 4 days all but a few on mini twins......(only becuse of the speed difference down the straight) were in the fast group passes were getting closer and closer (but because they were moving up groups this mattered less and less) you could see the difference (mostly on the brakes.... )

Most of the Riders were doing the Rider clinics...so the Instructors had maybe one or two riders in each session ...to avoid going slowly or wasting time they would wait in the pits until thier student went past ...and then catch them up in 1/4 of a lap the difference is HUGE and has to be seen to be believed (and NO close passing)

Luke, read it again mate. You've missed the point.

There is zero ego there. No lecture at all. It's just my opinion. Anyone who's met me will vouch for that. I think I'm shit and self criticize everything I do. . But as I posted, I'm trying to get better.

Pushing your comfort zone a bit doesn't mean crashing. Klinky's asking about training coz he wants to get faster. That's my take on how to get faster. Not for a minute saying it's the right or only way.

Riding round well withing a big safety net or comfort zone won't get anyone any quicker.

We're not really talking about racing here.

I don't want to crash either. I don't think about it though. I'm doing 60-80 hrs overtime a month to be able to afford to track my bike and now go racing. When I'm down south I'm living on 1meal a day to save cash. There ain't no rich dude here who can afford to throw it in gung ho and pay the bill. If I crash I'm fooked.

I say about the groups because at Oulton there was guys in fast as the sharp end doing 1min 50's. But there were also guys doing 2min12's. I heard both groups of guys chatting about their times.

What I'm saying is that those 2min12 guys should have been in inters, but instead for ego the book in fast, (coz they think it's something to brag about or something, dunno) and are all over the place and making it dangerous in places.

Just diff opinions I think. I went to Cadwell and expected the fast group to be 1min 35 - 1min 43. So fast is pretty fast. Just saying I'm a bit disappointed as the standard on bike days is a lot lower than I expected.

You don't think you can try radical things on an sd? Surely not mate. Why not try stuff when your out there? Go and bang 2x turns of rear preload on for the next session and see what happens. Whack on 10 turns of fork compression. It might be shit, but you'll learn and move forwards.

I havent been to Oulton so cant comment how that disparity of group would feel, but on paper that doesnt seem a bad spread of times for a fast group. The fastest guy doing 1m50 is going to get 10 laps in a 20 min session and the slowest at 2.12 will get 9. Sure the fastest guy will lap the slowest once per session but that isnt a problem.

If you put the 2.12 guy in the inters he will most likely be lapping the slower riders there. I bet the disparity in inters between slowest and fastest is far greater than 22 seconds per lap also. Plus a lot of the slower inters hit a corner on a different line and brake in a different place each lap, which makes them more dangerous to pass.

You are right about some riders wanting to be in the fast group for bragging rights but far more dont want to get stood up in corners in the inter group. Dont want all the red flags and stoppage time that the inters usually get and dont mind being passed by a quick rider who is passed and gone with no drama usually. I would say far more inexperienced trackdayers leave novice too soon for bragging rights and cause this problem in the first place.

The problem will always occur when riders are allowed to self select a group. It is made worse by TDO's only having 30 or 60 inter places to sell so they then start putting riders in groups they never asked to be in. That is how I, and most others on here, got into the fast group in the first place. The only way around it is to transponder every rider at every trackday and sort them after the first session. Even then there will be problems. I have done about 60 trackdays but none in the last 18 months where do I go inters, fast, back to nobber again? The one time I went to Cadwell I went in inters as I didnt know my way around, that was a few years ago so I dont remember it very well, which group should I chose if I were to go there again? Given how narrow it is I would probably do inters again and risk the slower riders. I might even dress as a woman just to overtake Freestyler on his new Toohomo.

I know a lot of you chaps aren't big fans of FE but I did a TD with them earlier this year and booked an instructor for £130 for the day. To avoid getting anyone in trouble, I'll omit some of the details but I went from a genuine baseline of 2min 4 secs to 1 min 58. It is dog slow on that track (I won't tell you which one!) but that represents a 5% improvement. This was on a track I know well and the baseline time was taken from a good session so I'd regard it as a genuine improvement. I wasn't going mad, never felt out of my comfort zone and had no real dramas. I'm sure if I actually got my finger out a bigger improvement would have been possible without going banzai. I'm fairly confident that most of what I learnt wasn't track specific and that I've used what I've learnt elsewhere. For £130 it was a good deal and I'm pretty certain the instructor could get an improvement out of people much better than me. The instructor I had was a great bloke, helpful and modest - the 115+mph IoM laps only came to light becasue I was being nosey.

All your problems are sorted. Simon Crafar is doing some one to one days in the UK this year. From what I can gather you pay for the trackday (100 - 150 quid) plus 375 for Crafar. I guess it must be tracktime coaching only as it looks like he is training 3 riders per day i.e 1 novice, 1 inter, 1 (how to describe the other group without upsetting Gordon?) faster inter? Anyway 500 quid isnt much more than a CSS day, I am up for Brands, anyone else?